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We work with football, baseball, basketball, lacrosse, ice hockey, soccer, tennis, golf, and MMA.
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Feel free to contact me via email for more information.
Alex
Trainer Joe, 
Brandon Green, 
Brandon Green 1:16 am on October 27, 2012 Permalink
Hello
As usual videos are fantastic. Potentially a good a article/video in the future would be the advisability of speed before strength. This is something Jay Schroeder was high on when i trained with him. Before i lifted in the 90% plus range i spent six months in the 55-80% range.
Brandon Green 2:39 am on November 2, 2012 Permalink
Hello
The reply video was good. Answered a lot of questions. I do recall the bar picking up speed a great deal when i finally began lifting 90% plus. Kinda of like when you have a job washing dishes. Your nervous system thinks speed all the time. And your hands began to move faster.
evosite 3:41 am on November 2, 2012 Permalink
Exactly
Brandon Green 10:09 pm on November 5, 2012 Permalink
Maybe off topic but what do you think of Cal Dietz’s theory of eccentric work for two weeks before iso work ? I believe that it’s the undulation theory correct.
I know that Christian Thibadeau does not use the eccentric much because he believes the recovery to be just to slow. And related to that i read on a gymnastics site that eccentric contractions (slow eccentrics not the plyo related ones) do not transfer to strength (maybe muscle mass) unless they are done “very slowly” as in 30 seconds for a dip.
evosite 10:51 pm on November 5, 2012 Permalink
I like the eccentric before isometric. The idea is you need a lot of eccentric strength to halt the rapid descent during plyometric action. I don’t think it is undulation more than just training the phases of contraction in the sequence that they occur in dynamic movement. In other words what good is isometric strength if you lack the eccentric strength/RFD to halt movement. The isometric just allows for a rapid efficient transition of force from eccentric to concentric. You need eccentric RFD to increase the force that is absorbed into the tissues so the isometric can transfer the energy.
Here is my question:
Are slow eccentrics the best way to do this or are drops a better method like in the squat progression video I posted earlier in the articles section?
In that case maybe the idea of LDISO for position, then drops and hods to train the eccentric RFD and iso component (gradually reduce the length of the pause), followed by CAT training with the fast eccentric may be best. Haven’t tried it but it makes sense.
What do you think AND how does this fit with what jay did with you?
Brandon Green 4:29 am on November 6, 2012 Permalink
Supposedly slow eccentrics only tranfer strength wise unless they are done very slowly. Fast eccentrics do transfer well but not in all persons. With Jay the typical eccentric emphasis was fast but i believe that unless you have a certain amount of eccntric and isometric strength to begin with alt. drops and without saying depth jumps will not work. The progression you describe i believe will work well for most advanced high school and certainly college football players for example but not someone that cannot squat at least 1.5x bodyweight. That has been my experience with me and my clients(especially 40-50 yr. old types who would like to play recreational b-ball on a higher level). Like i said Jay used alt. drops with me but with 90% plus weights in a complex. This was before LDISO’s.
evosite 12:57 am on November 7, 2012 Permalink
I like the idea of slow eccentrics to teach dynamic tension. Staying tight in the core which would have a lot of carryover into explosive movements.
Brandon Green 3:13 am on November 7, 2012 Permalink
Ya know it just might the age related process that cause the shock methods or it’s relations i.e. altitude drops to not work as well (i am 52). Or maybe it’s the lack of strength. Maybe it takes some low level elasticity work over a longer period and a greater strength in order to use these methods.
evosite 9:17 pm on November 7, 2012 Permalink
You may be correct. IIRC I believe with age our tissues become less elastic. Personally I am actually quite fond of Deitz’s methodology. It is quite similar to what I do with athletes. It is strongly rooted in the soviet research that has influenced me.
One thing that I have done with the strength phase is to use 531 and do week 1 %s and slow eccentrics, Week 2%’s and do the iso, Week 3%’s use concentric methods.
Then for the supplemental exercises also use similar tempos to the main lift but obviously lighter weights.
I am quite fond of 531 for older people. Volume is lower, you really only got 1 balls to the wall set so recovery seems better.
Brandon Green 4:26 am on November 8, 2012 Permalink
Some thoughts on eccentric training-
Re: Negatives a necessity for strength training?
by Joshua Naterman on Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:43 pm
Well, in my opinion you have to separate out the reasons why eccentric strength gains are so velocity specific and why they do not carry over as much to concentric work. It is all neurological. 100%. It would seem that a heavy focus on eccentric training is a very good way to build the muscle mass that you need, but you will still have to teach your body to use this muscle mass effectively, which can take a while.
Eccentric training HAS to be slow in order to be effective for mass and therefore strength gain. This, of course, starts gearing the body towards slow movement efficiency and only using 70% of the muscle fibers that are innervated during concentric movement of the same load. These adaptations either have to be unlearned (this will apply to people who train with only negatives for long periods of time) or minimized by a certain amount of concentric speed training with similar loads. You must make sure you do not lose velocity with a given load. Very important, that is.
I personally think that a slow transition from slower to faster movements with the same resistance will be very effective, as would slowly increasing the concentric load while maintaining velocity. This has, in fact, been proven to be a very effective method of improving RFD and through this the 1RM for bench press in particular, and I would be very surprised if this was not the case for every lift.
I believe Chad Waterbury goes into a reasonable amount of detail with these in his books, but I could be mis-remembering that.
Speed is kind of a hard thing to get back once you lose it, as I am finding out. You can certainly do it, but don’t expect quick results. In my opinion it is better to maintain the speed as much as possible so that this re-learning process is minimized.Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/slizzardman
Passionate Sage: the Character and Legacy of John Adams, by Joseph J. Ellis, p. 172:
Ideology = an organized collection of seductive hopes and wishes, a systematic way of going wrong with confidence.Joshua Naterman
Moderator & Resident Encyclopedia
Posts: 7067
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 5:21 am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Brandon Green 4:32 am on November 8, 2012 Permalink
One more-The point being that eccentric strength gains are velocity specific and either and as Jay Schroeder did say in his “Most shocking sports training” that the eccentric must be
either fast(plyo related) or very,very slow-
Re: Negatives a necessity for strength training?
by Joshua Naterman on Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:47 am
There is a guy whose entire workout “system” is based on “negative only” training, and truthfully it’s not bad if all you are after is a good look. The biggest problem with negative only training is that it does very little to develop concentric efficiency, which is really important for actual performance. Of course, that’s only because the vast majority of actual sport performance is concentric, with some exceptions like ring strength, where there is a pretty good mix of negatives, isometrics, and concentrics.
By eventually slowing your negatives down to where you can take 20-30s to perform one rep at a continuous speed you will essentially be performing an isometric hold at every moment in the exercise and this will build the base for easily being able to move concentrically, but by itself it is not enough for performance since you have not learned to be efficient concentrically yet (assuming all you are doing is negatives). The other major downside of negative only training is that your body has to deal with a LOT of damage. That is not the ideal strength stimulus, simply because you have to repair all the damage before you can grow new myofibrils, and you are only using 70% of the motor units that would fire under the same load concentrically (this both teaches a different firing pattern AND is part of the reason that so much damage occurs during eccentric movement). That is the reason you can usually do controlled negatives with up to 133% of your 1rm (depending on your neural efficiency). But, with the right PWO nutrition, a lot of this particular potential downside can be avoided.
Eccentric strength and mass gains with eccentric training are better than they are with concentric training of the same intensity, but they are also fairly specific to eccentric work. The gains also appear to be very velocity-specific. In other words, they do not seem to transfer well to faster movements. This is perfect for bodybuilders and athletes who are looking to put on more muscle mass for the purpose of accelerating strength development once a return to more performance-oriented training is made.Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/slizzardman
Passionate Sage: the Character and Legacy of John Adams, by Joseph J. Ellis, p. 172:
Ideology = an organized collection of seductive hopes and wishes, a systematic way of going wrong with confidence.Joshua Naterman
Moderator & Resident Encyclopedia
Posts: 7067
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 5:21 am
Location: Atlanta, GA
JohnG 4:39 pm on November 9, 2012 Permalink
For what it’s worth, I’ve been playing around with the Dietz method a bit the last two months and have really noticed a difference on how explosive I am with 85% of my weight in exercises. I also have always noticed a large increase in total strength when I’ve incorporated controlled eccentrics with > 80% 1RM in exercises. I feel that it really allows you to control the heavier weight which turns into you being able to hit the reversal point in an exercise faster and thus explode out. I should have used a tendo to measure my increases in velocity, but going by feel I’m literally jumping a couple inches with +~350 lbs which I definitely could not do before.
I think one thing that you missed with Dietz’s method in regards to controlled eccentrics or when you’re pausing at the reversal point is that everything you do concentrically is always performed as explosively as possible.
evosite 10:09 pm on November 9, 2012 Permalink
Appreciate the feedback. I agree with the increases in bar velocity. Around the second week of the power phase the velocity on the 80% day goes through the roof. I generally always lift with an explosive concentric so that may be why I passed over the idea.
Brandon Green 10:50 pm on November 9, 2012 Permalink
Hello,
What might go without saying is that all this lifting in the 55-80% of max range
really assists max strength as well as power. That’s why Oly lifters among other reasons “blow up” so fast should they aspire to either body building or power lifting. So much easier on the nervous system. Dietz says himself that you don’t always have to lift max weights to get stronger.
Brandon Green 7:33 am on November 23, 2012 Permalink
Hello
While i like to use clusters and interset rest periods can be quite effective my question is what about bar speed ? Performing a cluster with the point being just to “grind out” a few more reps is not good for max force. In my view you will develop a sort of “max strength endurance” (if using weights 85-90% plus)
JohnG 4:31 pm on November 28, 2012 Permalink
You could use a tendo and measure bar speed. Keeping it above .5-.7 m/s or something like that when using higher percentages. Don’t let it grind and you’ll get more quality work in with the intra-set rests.
Brandon Green 6:23 am on November 29, 2012 Permalink
Hello
A tendo unit would be a good idea. As an aside has anyone noticed that while doing LDISO’s and drops/rebounds at the same time that you don’t get the usual bodybuilder “stiffness” from training ?
evosite 9:52 pm on November 29, 2012 Permalink
Hi Brandon and John,
I agree with your sentiments about grinding out multiple reps. I think that maybe I was not as clear with the grinding context. If one is to employ autoregulation we have a few options:
1. Use a tendo – as john suggested. which is most effective but also cost prohibitive and hard to find in a gym setting.
2. Use the time method I outlined and not grind any repetitions. The chart in the presentation should prevent this.
3. Use bar speed as an indicator. with this you would only grind 1 rep and grind is defined as feeling any additional strain. This is the least accurate but another option. As Brandon noted this would develop a form of force endurance and also seems to induce more hypertrophy, which would be functional/sarcomeric hypertrophy.
Finally Brandon I have noticed a similar effect when using LDISO and rebounds with regards to lack of stiffness.
Michael Zweifel 2:20 am on December 1, 2012 Permalink
I interned at the university of minnesota, and got to work under Cal Dietz, so it is very cool to see some discussion about his methods.
I got to see first hand his triphasic undulating periodization. During his eccentric phase he combined both slow eccentrics with fast eccentrics. He did some accelerated eccentrics with the help of bands or by tell his athletes to actively pull down during this eccentric phase and his athletes did a lot of different jumping movements during this phase. He also did timed sets, and his athletes performed as many sets as possible for this set duration. With this he did some autoregulating, where he would stop athletes after they dimished past a given percentage.
During the isometric phase there was alot of paused set and well as oscillating isometrics to take advantage of reciprocal inhibition.
Finally during his concentric phase his athletes still moved heavy weight and like always at great speeds. Again his athletes performed many explosive, jumping movements including assisted jump squats with bands attached to the top of the weight rack.
It was amazing working under Cal, and learning his methods. I wish I could be more help, but he was just a master at what he did, and had a lot of elements to his madness!
Brandon Green 7:35 pm on December 18, 2012 Permalink
Hello
Would it be worth your while, perhaps in the future to invest in a bodybuilding manual (write one) ?
Brandon Green 9:03 pm on December 18, 2012 Permalink
Hello
Here is a question ? There are some that say that the shock method or it’s derivatives do not work as well for flexors as for extensors . Example-How effective are rebound rows? Some are saying that the biceps and other muscles tend to take over in pull ups and rows when using a rebound method. Maybe more so would be some sort of straight arm rebound ?
Brandon Green
JohnG 5:39 pm on December 19, 2012 Permalink
Brandon,
I’ve seen some really good back growth using these methods. I stuck with Pendlay Rows/Chins. For the Isos I would hold at the ‘top’ of the movement (rows with bar at chest/chins w/ chin at bar). I put on ~15 lbs of muscle with the following template….
A1) RDL
A2) Row/Chin (alternate each workout)
A3) Single Leg RDL
A4) Bench/OH Press
I did 3 workouts a week, undulating periodization, blocked per Dietz’s method. At the end of the cycles the most noticeable growth was on my upperback, though everything got way stronger.
John
evosite 10:49 pm on December 19, 2012 Permalink
Hi Brandon,
I have not thought about a bodybuilding manual. Personally I like exercises that keep the body under tension for extended periods of time to develop hypertrophy. These can include things like 20 rep breathing squats, barbell/kettlebell complexes, prowler pushes, various carries (I like a walking RDL). Longer iso holds while pulling maximally with load would also fit here. You could do KB clean and press for 10 minutes and when you can do 100 reps move up a KB.
I would fit them in at the end of a workout like a finisher. So one could do a triphasic block for squat, push, pull and finish with one of these ideas. This is along the lines of what pendlay does with his novices to build up hypertrophy AND weighted work capacity. So it lays a foundation for higher volume and intensity weight work in the future.
One of the keys is that these methods should tax the entire body AND I don’t believe in going balls out in the complexes. Of course you should work hard, have shortness of breath, discomfort but rest as needed to keep solid form. So in that regard we may sacrifice load for technique and longer set duration.
evosite 10:55 pm on December 19, 2012 Permalink
I think that rebound rows and such can be very beneficial. Remember at higher levels of ability the ability to turn on and off is what separated elite athletes from the rest. Rebounds, Cal’s AFSM method, innosports oscillatory isos and Cals version of oscillatory work all fit the bill
I think that they dont see as much of a direct carryover to sport because extension drives everything however a fighter ma need to retract his fist rapidly to prevent being hit, a more forceful hip flexion during the swing phase sets a more powerful hip extension via SSC and SR. More rapid/forceful preload leads to a more powerful strike. It may only be a small percentage but at high levels that can be the margin of victory.
I think you get the idea.
Brandon Green 8:33 am on December 20, 2012 Permalink
Hello
To Michael ZWeifil- Among those slow eccentrics did Cal ever include “reversible muscle action” ala Verkhoshansky (page 28 of Verkoshansky’s special strength training : a manual for coaches). I am using these now in my own eccentric phase and it seems refreshing for my nervous system and joints to be able to acquire a good eccentric effect without having to use heavy weights
Brandon Green 8:44 am on December 20, 2012 Permalink
Hello
To Alex-
I like your “body bulding ideas” . What i am trying to do now may seem quite complex but i am seeing how this will work. I just finished a 4 week combo of altitude drops and LDISO’s. Now i am in a 2 week “eccentric phase” of a six week cycle aimed at Max strength. Next i will ride the compensatory “wave” and work on Power(4-6 weeks) then 1-2 cycles of “Schroederesqe” body building. Was gonna do power first but thought better of it.
Brandon Green
Brandon Green 5:31 am on December 23, 2012 Permalink
Hello
Speed as a Potentiator- Has anyone used speed as a potentiator or rather power?
I recall in the Soviet sports review jumps over a bench 10 times BEFORE squatting.
To Michael ZWeifil-I misspoke about “reversible muscle action” first it’s not a slow eccentric method and second it seems very much like a rebound.
Brandon Green 5:57 am on December 23, 2012 Permalink
Hello
QUICK STYLE- What does anyone of think of the purpose of the quick style reps Jay Schroeder advocates ? I saw this in a body building mesocycle that Jay wrote ?
Brandon
Michael Zweifel 3:45 am on January 2, 2013 Permalink
Brandon Green,
Not quite sure what reversible muscle action really is. From what I understand it is when the origin of a muscle moves towards the insertion, instead of the more frequent vise versa. I can’t really help you much on that topic.
Brandon Green 8:04 pm on January 3, 2013 Permalink
Hello
To Michael Zweifel- Page 28 of Special strength training- a Manual For Coaches(not the most recent edition)- “Using the shock method for training different muscle groups is shown on fig. 24 The weight at the beginning is freely lowered; 2/3 of the total range of motion. Then there is a sharp movement downwards-upwards-with fast twitching of the muscles from eccentric to concentric , executed to produce vigorous acceleration of the load.”
Michael Zweifel 11:39 pm on January 3, 2013 Permalink
Brandon,
Oh ok, so just a regular reactive or drop type exercise. Yes he did these. Bench, squat, pull-ups, lateral/forward DB arm raises, and glute/ham were all exercises where he used this “reverse muscle action”
Brandon Green 11:54 pm on January 3, 2013 Permalink
Hello
Question- To Michael If you choose to answer- I am going to assume these are used in Dietz’s eccentric block of triphasic training ?
Brandon Green 7:48 pm on January 4, 2013 Permalink
Hello
What does anyone think of the ARP ? Are the results duplicatable wth regular EMS?
Brandon Green 11:32 pm on February 11, 2013 Permalink
It would be great to have a DVD of pdf of the Midwest 2013 performance clinic
Trainer Joe 3:48 pm on March 13, 2013 Permalink
Hello,
I have been a follower of your site/blog for a while now. So firstly, thank you for the great information you regularly provide. I would also like to state that I am a protege of Dr. J and am familiar with your training systems and long duration eccentrics (isos.) My question is regarding the energy system comparisons of these exercises to traditional exercises of the same poses. I recently listened to an interview of Alex’s where you state 3 minutes of holding an eccentric lunge position is the equivalent to about 1,000 traditional lunges (I don’t remember the exact number you used). I would greatly appreciate your input on the energy system comparisons, and/or any information you could direct my way to learn more about this.
Thanks!